Episode 33
Men's Health w/ Ryan Parke
Welcome to Mental Wealth, we are going to be focusing on men's mental health. Joining us this week is Ryan Parke. Ryan is The Men's Coach, a TEDx Speaker, and international award-winning public speaker. Ryan works with companies and charities that want to improve mental health for men by taking an evidence-based approach.
Ryan shares the importance of how testosterone, the change in season and many more factors can affect the men's health. Also, debunking myths around men's health and mental health.
https://www.themenscoach.co.uk/
***If you know anyone that is struggling and suffering from suicidal thoughts. Please get in touch with one of the helplines below.
(Samaritans) 116 123
(National Suicide Prevention Helpline UK) tel:+44-08006895652
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Transcript
Episode 33 - Men's health
Transcript
::Welcome to mental wealth, the podcast to invest in your mind. Here I will help you make sense of your mind and behaviours, giving you the tools to have your best life. There is so much to share, so let's get into this episode and explore another great topic.
::So welcome to episode 33. And in this episode we are going to be focusing on men's health on men's mental health, but also if you're a woman listening, we've got news for you as well. So it's very much as are my episodes are, it's open to everybody and.
::I am delighted to say that I am sharing this space with an expert in this topic and I'd like to welcome Ryan Parke to the episode.
::Thank you so much, Alison. I'm really pleased to be here and really excited about our talk today.
::Me too. So I saw you speaking at an event called bee inspired back in September last year and I was really taken by what you were saying. So please tell everyone a little bit about who you are and then we'll dive into.
::What you'd like?
::To talk about.
::Yeah. Fantastic. Well, yeah. Bee inspired was a really great event. That was Danny Wallace's event, and I was really honoured to be on the stage there. It was really fantastic. And my name is Ryan Parke. I share the science of male mental health through talks, through workshops and through coaching so that you never have to lose the men that you care.
::About to suicide.
::That's really poignant, isn't it? Is that preventative peace, and and I know.
::That you've got your own story behind.
::Why you got into this? And we'd.
::Love to hear that first, but I think just.
::I think we've said it in the notes, but just to remember that this session may well be quite difficult for some people to listen to, so we just.
::Want to say?
::That upfront again, just to remember that you know for me we need to talk about these things and you know we make no apology really that we're going to.
::Be talking about some.
::What might be quite difficult to hear, but actually we need to talk about it.
::Completely agree.
::Yeah. So tell everyone a little bit what got you into looking.
::At male mental health.
:: oment in my life back in June: ::Because Brad, well, he was everything I wanted to be. He was taller than me, more muscular, some would say slightly better, looking hard to believe, I know. But a strong argument could have been made. But the important thing to know is that Brad had a fast car, a big house and a great job. Plus he was a dad with a loving wife.
::And I like to think, Alison, that I was on the same trajectory as Brad, but I was just a couple of years behind because.
::Of the age difference.
::Then I saw a look on his mum's face and I thought ohh, what have I?
::Said how have I upset her?
::And she said, Ryan, you're asking me how Brad is? You don't know Brad's killed himself.
::Now I was really taken aback by that. Alison. The main reason I was taken back by that is because up until that point, I'd always heard what we all hear, which is the reason why men have higher rates of suicide than women do is because men don't talk.
::And yet, Brad?
::Was the most open and articulate man that I knew.
::In fact, I found out after he died that two years before his death, Brad went to the doctor's and said help. I think I'm depressed. I know. I'm having thoughts about suicide.
::Brad's doctor did what doctors are supposed to do. Brad was referred to talking therapy and prescribed antidepressants.
::Brad attended talking therapy, took antidepressants and two months before Brad's death, his mum, Jenny, who is a mental health practitioner, said Brad call me every night. Tell me how you feel. You've got to get these feelings off your chest.
::Now, I'm not suggesting these things didn't.
::Help Brad. I'm sure they did.
::But what really struck with me at the time was here was a man who had done all the things that we tell men.
::In crisis to do.
::And yet he still wasn't here.
::And Brad's mum Jenny said to me. Well, Ryan.
::You should learn about this because every five hours, four people die from suicide in the UK and Ireland. Three of them are men.
::In fact 1/3 of.
::All suicides deaths by suicide.
::In the UK and Ireland.
::Are men aged 45 to 49.
::Jenny said. I used to think that male mental health was something that only affected men, but now as a mum who's lost her son, I realise that actually this is something that has the potential to affect everybody in the world.
::So when I learned.
:: one day every week from June: ::I had no idea where to start because at the time I had no medical and no mental health background and so I decided to start simply by asking big questions, assuming I knew nothing because.
::I genuinely did know nothing about the subject and just reading scientific papers and on the very, very first day.
::Of assuming I knew nothing, asking big questions, reading scientific papers.
::I was reading a study by an American doctor and it just happened to.
::Mention there is one day every year where heart attacks in men jump up by around 30%.
::And on the same day of the year, heart attacks in women go down by around 30%. Can you guess what day that is, Alison?
::Gosh, I'm sure everyone's trying to think what, what? The answer to this is. I suppose Christmas is often a time that's seen as very stressful, so maybe I would say Christmas or...
::I don't know. Maybe early early in the new year here we are in early in.
::Into January, maybe.
::It's early in the new year.
::Yeah. So really good guesses. Just so you know, Christmas and the new year, there's a massive increase in heart attacks in men. But on those days, there's also an increase in heart attacks in women as well.
::So we know it's stressful.
::Yeah. So we know it's stressful. Really, really good guesses, but no, we're looking for a day where heart attacks go up in men and down in women. Do you want to have one more guess?
::Up in men, so must be since there's pressure around.
::Maybe what about Valentine's Day?
::Good guess maybe. If a man forgets Valentine's Day, that might cause a heart attack. But no, it's not Valentine's Day. Although that's I always hear that. So I think Valentine's Day is a stressful day for men. But the one day every year where heart attacks jump up in men by around 30% and go down in women by about 30% is the Monday.
::After the clocks jump forward by one hour.
::So in the UK, that's when daylight savings time begins in March, when we miss one hour sleep.
::And when I learned that I had to know why. And it turns out that what happens in your body when you miss one hour's sleep depends upon whether you're biologically male or biologically female.
::In a male body missing just one hours sleep lowers a man's testosterone for days.
::And in a male body, as testosterone goes down, his chances of having a heart attack go up.
::And when I learned.
::That I remember thinking that's really weird because I was 29 at the time and.
::I remember thinking I had.
::Never heard anything good about testosterone in my whole life.
::In fact, when I was a kid and there was a fight in my local pub, my mum's friends used to say.
:: ::But it's.
::No wonder they ended up fighting there.
::Was too much testosterone in the room.
::So I wondered, how can a hormone that causes fights in pubs protect men from having a heart attack? And I decided next week I've got to learn about testosterone. So the following week comes around. It's my next day of learning about male mental health. And the first question I wanted to answer just by reading.
::Scientific papers was why does testosterone make men aggressive?
::And it turns out testosterone does not make men aggressive. That was disproved decades ago. Just unfortunately, the the PR hasn't caught up with the science. In fact, it's miles away on testosterone.
::So now I knew testosterone wasn't bad. My next question is why does it protect a man's heart?
::And it turns out that not only does testosterone protect a man's heart, it also protects his mental health.
::You see, the average middle-aged man who is depressed has 33% less testosterone than the average middle-aged man who is not depressed.
::OK.
:: really interested because in: ::Now, suicide is the biggest killer of men from 18 to 50 because it keeps going up. But the time is 18 to 45.
::Suicide, especially in middle-aged men and depression in men of all ages, is linked to having low testosterone.
::Yeah. And and it gets even more interesting, right? Because that year, the biggest killer of men from the age of 45 to 60 was heart disease, heart disease, heart attack and heart failure in men are all linked to having a low level of testosterone.
::So then I start to.
::Wonder. Well, hold on a minute if.
::All the biggest killers of men from the age of 18 to 45, 45 to 60 are all based on having a low level of testosterone. What happens after the age of 60?
::And the biggest killer of men after the age of 60 in the UK is cancer.
::The most likely cancer that a man will be diagnosed with is prostate cancer, and Alison, can you guess what is the single biggest indicator that a man will be diagnosed with prostate cancer?
::Low testosterone, or high... It's the testosterone.
::Isn't it?
::Yeah, it's low testosterone.
::In fact, the longer a man maintains a healthy level of testosterone, the less chance he'll ever get prostate cancer in his.
::Life and as soon as a man has.
::A low level of.
::Testosterone. His chances of developing prostate cancer go up by nearly three times.
::Now, I don't just speak about testosterone, but I always like to start with this story because it really demonstrates how in just two days of trying to understand this, I went from believing that really the testosterone was bad and that men just needed to talk to suddenly realising that there's a lot more to male mental health than those two myths.
::And actually I could see pretty quickly that testosterone is a hormone that underpins male mental health, physical health and life expectancy.
::Unfortunately, not only are men not taught that, but worse, there is actually stigma associated with testosterone that prevents men from finding this useful information when they need it.
::Hence the reason why you love to talk about this at any opportunity, I would imagine because we do need to change what people are saying and doing. And I think something that something that you kind of springs to my mind is that.
::Kind of just thinking quite generally is.
::Is the the clocks and that whole season thing. You know, people often talk about that, don't.
::They but they're.
::Not ever really understanding what's underneath that.
::You know, they just sort of.
::All feel out of.
::Sorts, don't they?
::When the clocks go whichever way some people struggle more the other way going into the winter, and some people just find it difficult when they've lost them and running again. It's just that light touch around, OK, you know.
::There's stuff going on.
::Yes, that that actually is affecting us, but we don't often pause and think what it is. We're just straight into the response or the emotional reaction.
::And clock changes are really interesting because it it kind of becomes a very reliable experiment each year. What happens when you have?
::More or less sleep so.
::So, lots of people have found that the number of heart attacks doesn't seem to change when the clocks change, but that's because lots of studies don't divide by biological sex. They don't look at male and female heart attacks. What happens is in the spring, when we lose an hour sleep, heart attacks.
::Jump up in men and go down in women, but in the autumn when we gain an hour's sleep, heart attacks jump up in women and go down in men.
::So it's a really interesting example of how ignoring.
::Differences and how our biology affects us is dangerous because if I don't know as a man, but I need to get that extra hour of sleep, then I'm not going to get it and it's the same way the other way round. I've never spoken to a woman who knows that getting that extra hour of sleep in August increases heart attacks in women.
::Crazy, crazy. And there's a bit more that's thinking. Ohh gosh, are we just then giving all our men permission to have more sleep? And and women have to do?
::More and more and.
::More, but we're not saying that, are we?
::It's no, we're absolutely not. And sleep is actually quite an interesting area because so it's important to know that sleep is the single biggest factor when it comes to how much testosterone a man has in his body.
::Wow.
::But there are quite big differences on sleep depending on whether you're male or female. So one thing that we know is obviously, you know this missing an hour of sleep, you know, massively damaging to men. In fact, it's been found that missing one hour of sleep lowers a man's testosterone temporarily by the equivalent of 12 years of ageing.
::So I'm 33. Hard to believe, I know, but I had a very easy paper round and if I missed one hour of sleep last night today I'd have the same level of testosterone as a man who's 45 and got a good night's sleep. And if I missed two hours of sleep last night, today I'd have the same level of testosterone as a man who's 57.
::And got a good night's sleep.
::So it's not all about age when it comes to testosterone. In fact, age is not a big deal. There's five things that affect testosterone a lot more than age and just.
::One of them is sleep.
::OK. So let's think then. So you've given us so much interesting statistics and information, and I'm sure for some people listening it is new information and I think we're saying that it will be because it's not getting spoken about like.
::This but what I'm now interested in is what can we all do? Because there's there's two angles of this, isn't that we have got the males that we need to help and protect. Obviously that's my main focus for today. But I'm also interested. I do a lot of work with couples and relationships and sometimes you know, it's knowing what each party.
::Needs to do to help each other. Really. I think that would be something that I would love to hear your thoughts on.
::Yeah, that's a really, really great question. I think so for men, I'd say that what you need to do is you need to understand the factors that influence test or stroke. So shall I quickly.
::Run through what they are.
::So the single biggest thing that influences testosterone we know is sleep.
::Do you wanna have a guess, Alison? What do you think the other big factors are?
::That influence testosterone exercise.
::Yeah, I've I've put exercises #3 on the list.
::OK.
::I would imagine something to.
::Do with stress levels sort.
::Of how they're managing, how they're managing their.
::Kind of commitments workload.
::Yeah. So really, really good guess. Actually the things that we're looking at, not only do.
::They increase testosterone, but.
::They also reduce stress.
::OK. So it's not, it's on its own.
::Yep. Yep. So we're kind of going a level deeper than that, but it's a really good guess. So the second biggest factor after sleep is food.
::Right.
::Now I use the word food rather than the word diet because often when men hear the word diet, they run away because they think I'm gonna say you need to eat less. But actually what you eat is much more important than how much you eat. I often liken it a bit to like. Imagine you at the airport you're picking up.
::A hire car.
::And you get the keys and you say brilliant. What fuel do?
::I need to put in it.
::And imagine they said it doesn't matter what fuel you put in, just make sure it's.
::30 litres.
::And that's what we do when we count calories in a diet, it's quite ridiculous, actually, cause the thing that matters the most is what's going into our body, not how much of it there is.
::Yeah, yeah. And for men, what's important to know is for a healthy level of testosterone, men have to eat a a decent amount of homemade food. So not takeaways, not restaurant food, not even the things you put in the oven that come out of a box. It's real homemade.
::Food and plenty of green vegetables.
::So green vegetables contain lots of things in them that act as bodyguards inside a man's blood and protect the testosterone that his body makes. So it lasts for longer.
::Which means he has higher levels over time.
::OK. So guess that one we might say would be?
::For everyone in a way.
::Wouldn't it? But what you're saying is the science says it's even more important than that for men to have it.
::Right.
::Yeah, and and actually, if we were to look at sort of the female hormone side of things, which I'm definitely never pretend to be an expert on, but I think, you know, good understanding is important for everyone. So actually lots of the information that's coming out now shows that in order to make sure that you have the minimal symptoms when it comes to like perimenopause and menopause.
::You know what's really important is the way that you've lived and looked after yourself through your twenties, 30s and 40s, because if you've eaten lots of Whole Foods, lots of greens, and if you've not got most of your energy from carbohydrates, then you're gonna have a lot less symptoms when it comes to perimenopause than people who don't exercise or people who eat a lot of carbohydrates than sugar.
::So we've got the food element, then we come to exercise, which is so vital to know about, because actually an enormous analysis that came out this year, it looked at how 130,000 adults had been treated for depression, for stress and anxiety. And this analysis found that exercise.
::Is 1 1/2 times more effective than medication and 1 1/2 times more effective than talking therapy when it comes to dealing with depression with stress and with anxiety.
::90 and this is vital to know, because if you have a friend who, like Brad, goes to see their doctor because they're feeling stressed, depressed, or maybe having thoughts about suicide if their doctor follows the current guidelines at the moment in the UK, then your friend will leave the appointment with a referral to talking therapy and a prescription for antidepressants.
::But they still might not know that the single most important thing, the most effective thing they can do is something that has no waiting list, no side effects, no cost. It's just to get on some decent shoes and do something active outside.
::Yeah, last week's episode was with Lucy Gossage and.
::She is a.
::Cancer specialist and she is all into movement. So she's a 12 times Tri athlete champion.
::Yeah, and she has developed a.
::Move against cancer to 5K your way, and again, that's getting everyone out moving regardless of your age, your your physical condition. It's just getting moving and she was really keen to talk about how she as a doctor she does promote that. So I.
::Hear you from.
::Maybe some general practitioners, but for her particularly, she is all about that. So you'll there have to listen to that.
::That I will.
::That's really fantastic. It's music to my ears and there's more and more information now coming out that really says that, you know, lots of.
::The troubles that that humans experience health wise, they're so interrelated that that it actually makes more sense to see cancer in particularly as a metabolic disease rather than a genetic disease.
::Because because the genes don't influence people as much as as our lifestyles, basically.
::Definitely, definitely.
::OK, good. So we've got two more to to decipher.
::Yep, cool. So we've got the next one on the list is after you've got your sleep, your food, and your exercise the.
::Next one's actually vitamin D.
::OK.
::Now vitamin D, specifically D3, but you don't need to remember that all you need to remember is is the steroid that our body makes from being in the sun. Now in the summer, just 10 minutes of midday sun would be enough for a healthy level of vitamin D in most people.
::But in the winter, when the sun's behind clouds, and when we cover up more, you'd actually need around 2 hours of midday sun for a.
::Healthy level of it.
::Mid D.
::Now this is a bit problematic because vitamin D is a key ingredient for testosterone in men.
::Men with low levels of vitamin D also have low levels of testosterone.
::The NHS say it's very, very safe for most adults to supplement vitamin D, especially from when the clocks change. So you know, now basically it it changed back in November, but now in the new year, you know, all the way through to spring when the clocks change back.
::The NHS say it's safe to take around 10 micrograms a day in supplements and and actually more than research says you can take more than that. You can take about 25 micrograms a day as recommended, and that's recommended for most people, actually, unless you have a job where you're outside for a couple of hours at noon.
::And then.
::As soon as.
::I saw that list of key ingredients for healthy level of testosterone in men. I remember thinking oh crap.
::Cause you know, I knew Brad and I know that. Yeah, he did all the things that we tell men to do, he went to the doctor's, he took antidepressants. He attended talking therapy. He called his mum every night to tell her how he.
::But nobody that Brad spoke to knew enough about male mental health to realise that he was actually working so hard that I knew him well enough to know that sleep, homemade food, exercise and sunshine they just weren't on Brad's list of priorities. And I came to realise at the time they weren't on mine either and that trying to be a man.
::Is something that kills a lot of men.
::I think that's really powerful, isn't it?
::Statement and obviously like you say for you personally, it comes from a real place of knowing.
::How hard that was, but you know, again, I hope that people listening in can share this with anyone that they think needs to hear it because that's the ultimate goal for me. And I'm sure for you.
::As well, Ryan.
::Yeah, 100%. So there's one more factor we need to mention. And then I'd like to say if you're not a man, how do you use this information to support the men?
::That you care about so.
::The other fact that we need to talk about is alcohol, because each alcoholic drink lowers a man's testosterone by the equivalent of around six years of ageing.
::Now it's only temporary, but it is significant and it lasts for days. So what we have here is we have to realise that alcohol lowers testosterone in men.
::Men with low testosterone are depressed and what do depressed men like to do?
::Absolute and while I'm not saying that no one should drink what I am saying is it's important to be aware of this relationship, because the myths that surround testosterone actually make people think that drinking alcohol raises testosterone. You know, you hear a lot about testosterone, fuel drinking environments.
::And so this is something that I'd say to anyone who's not a man and wants to help the boys and the men in their life is please don't propagate any myths about testosterone being associated with violence, with aggression, with bad behaviour in general, because actually testosterone in men is proven to be associated not only with better.
::Mental health, physical health and life expectancy, but also with calmness, with fairness and treating people in a more equitable.
::Way as well.
::And I think.
::Something I'd like to just say there.
::Is I've got previous.
::Experience working in the drug and alcohol fields.
::For a long time in the NHS.
::You know that myth again about what alcohol does to anybody, but it was always particularly men.
::Not to use it as an excuse that I got violent because I've had a drink or I've got you.
::Know cause that's that's not OK, you know, that's.
::Not how we used to work. When.
::I worked in that.
::Field. You know they didn't hit everybody on the way home, but, but they might have gone home and done something to their partner. And that was the always the argument. And I think it's important.
::To say which is a.
::An aside, but it is important to remember the responsibility that everyone has about how they behave when they are drinking or not drinking or feeling aggressive and feeling angry. What are you going to do about it? It's so, so important, isn't it? To not to not blame the the thing and actually take responsibility for yourself.
::Especially because it was the adult who chose to drink the thing in the first place.
::Yeah, exactly.
::So something that I want men to be aware of is that not only does alcohol lower testosterone, but it also raises a chemical in our brain called noradrenaline, which is the word adrenaline of NOR in the beginning now nor adrenaline is associated with aggression. It is associated with violence. It is also associated with PTSD.
::And So what happens when you're male and you drink alcohol is you actually increase your tendency to react in an aggressive way?
::Unfortunately, men don't know this because we are brought up to believe that testosterone makes men aggressive, so it's hard for men to know about and correct these things if they're not even aware of the mechanisms that underpin them. But yet, alcohol does make some men behave in a much more aggressive way than when they're sober, so choosing to drink it means you're you are responsible for that behaviour.
::Yeah. And I think for me any alcohol and and some substances, whatever you're feeling. So if you're feeling.
::A bit low.
::And then you go and have a drink because.
::You're feeling a bit low.
::What alcohol for most people, does is it just amplifies the feeling that you.
::Had before you started, so if you're feeling quite jolly and you have a few drinks, then you'll continue to feel jolly. If you feel low, you're going to just amplify that feeling. And I think that's the myth as well, isn't it, that we think.
::The drinks going to take.
::It all the way.
::And actually, really, the reality is it just makes you feel worse.
::Or your head in the same direction that you were in anyway.
::My grandma used to say there's no bad situation that a drink won't make worse.
::Good saying.
::Yeah, really good saying.
::So we've got the situation where one of the hormones that's radically misunderstood at the moment when it comes to my mental health is testosterone. And I think that is genuinely costing us lives, especially because it's it's actually important to know that in the Western world, testosterone is declining.
::Quite rapidly every year.
:: year old men did in the: ::OK. And so while there's lots of information out there about the importance of things like getting men talking, which is?
::Very important, we're.
::Gonna talk about that in a second, but in the meantime, what's been completely overshadowed is the fact that we are facing an emergency when it comes to mental health, physical health and life expectancy in men, which is this vital hormone is decreasing throughout the.
::The world, and no one's paying any attention to that because lots of people believe that testosterone is bad.
::Good, I think it's really thought provoking this conversation. Hence the reason why I wanted you to come and.
::Share this with us.
::Yeah, it's brilliant. So I think we've hinted a couple of times, haven't we? We need to then think about how can we help each other. Really, how can men help women and women help men in these situations? Because for me, I can see.
::A shift, which is a positive shift in the nearly 30 years I've been working in this field.
::But a lot more men do come.
::Do book sessions now you know when I first started it, there wasn't very many at all. I'll be honest. And there is a lot more men who, even though I know you're saying it's not just about talking, I still think there has been a shift. I've seen a shift. Anyway, in my my practise with the sort of things and the sort of.
::People that come forward.
:: And I would say it's probably: ::In terms of that now, so even though.
::I know what?
::You're going to share with.
::Us is a little bit more about.
::Not forcing men to talk, but.
::There is a but, it there is.
::A shift and I'm.
::You know, I'm pleased to see that men do come forward. They don't feel as as ashamed as they may be used to. You know, this whole shift of big boys don't cry.
::And all that, you know.
::I think there is less of that, but it's.
::Still there as well, isn't it?
::Yeah, so, so you're absolutely right. There's been a really, really big shift. So if we look at data from, you know the BACP, yeah. Cool. Lovely. So according to the BACP, 79% of men agree it's more acceptable to talk about mental health than it was just five years.
::Right. And that's good news. That means we're moving in the right direction. 68% of men agree there's less stigma associated with mental health than there was just five years ago.
:: Between: ::Yeah, which I would say in my practise, that's what I've seen literally in the in the time I've been doing this, which is.
::They're saying is what you're saying.
::Nationally, which is good.
::That's fantastic. But then the important thing to know is that in the same time that all those markers have moved in.
::The right direction.
:: So between: ::Gone up as the population has grown, I mean, men are now more likely to die by suicide now.
::The important thing is the reason why I pull these stats together. I wanna say what I'm trying to say.
::And what I'm not trying to say, what I'm not trying to say is that doing what we're doing at the moment in terms of encouraging men to talk, addressing stigma and referring men's talking therapy, I'm not trying to say that that's a problem or that it isn't working 100%. Yeah, the reason why I pull these together.
::Is because there are a lot of different reasons why.
::People attend talking therapy.
::And while it's been shown that it's phenomenally effective for things like PTSD and effective for things like depression, it's actually also been shown that talking therapy is not. And you know, I'm sure you'll be familiar with as well. But talking therapy doesn't actually address the factors associated with thoughts about suicide in men.
::According to the Samaritans now it does for women, there's evidence that it does for women.
::So then it becomes the situation where it's like, well, how could that be? And actually there's a really interesting biological element to this, which explains a lot of the differences, not only in terms of what people say in terms of what people.
::See in life as well.
::So it comes down to another hormone and this hormone is called oxytocin. Oxytocin is often referred to as being the cuddle hormone or the love hormone, even though it's got nothing to do with love in men.
::It's still referred to as the.
::Love hormone and the reason?
::Is most of what you've heard oxytocin does. That's its effects on women.
::So, for example, oxytocin is released in everyone when we touch, cuddle, hold hands, or talk.
::About how we feel.
::Now in mammals and we are a mammal.
::Oxytocin in females lower stress.
::This means if you're female, if you're a if you're a woman, then you might know from your life experience that touching, cuddling, holding hands, and expressing your emotions lowers your stress.
::Yes, but it's also important to know that oxytocin doesn't lower stress in male mammals.
::This means that if you're a man, you might have experienced that touching, cuddling, holding hands, and talking about how you feel doesn't actually lower your stress on its own.
::Hmm, that's the critical thing, isn't?
::It it's that on its own.
::Exactly. Yeah. So what I believe from the work that I that I do, that I do in my coaching practise from the research that I've done from the organisations that I work with is that talking is vital for everybody.
::But what we have to know, and it's quite a nuanced point, is that for men talking alone is not sufficient. It definitely is the first step that men need in terms of opening up and and expressing the problems they have, because in order to find solutions.
::You need to talk and then just as important or maybe even more importantly is after that talking men need to know.
::What to actually do?
::About the problems in their life.
::And I think that's the difference I see. Ryan is is, you know, men much more sort of solution focused problem focus. I mean I've changed my practise, I don't really do it anywhere near as much kind of therapy work as I do more kind of very practical. OK, whatever's happened, let's see how we can move forward and do that for everyone because I believe that's actually what we need.
::More of now, but I think that's definitely in my experience, what men prefer is OK, I've got this problem. What can I do rather than I need to talk about it. I just need to know, what am I doing? Move me forward. Get get, get a focus. Get something very specific sorted out.
::Absolutely. And this can cause a big miscommunication because because of how oxytocin affects us differently, it can cause women to believe that men just need to talk.
::Because their lived experience might be when I talk about it, I feel better and he's not talking. Therefore, that's the reason he.
::Doesn't feel better.
::Yeah, yeah.
::But it can also cause men to think that women don't need to talk, so then they don't spend they they don't do things with their partner that releases oxytocin. And this is if you've ever heard the idea of sort of like quality time with your partner, sometimes men don't quite get. I never used to get what is quality time. And then I realise that it's time that releases oxytocin.
::Which makes my partner feel special. It makes my wife Emma feel less stressed. But because oxytocin doesn't distress me, there was never any difference for me between turning up in real life or sending a text. Mm-hmm.
::One's quality time because it releases oxytocin. Sending a text doesn't release oxytocin. The tests been done, but because men don't know that.
::We might think a text is as appropriate as a phone call or as turning up because we don't have oxytocin as a big.
::Factor in our lives.
::And you can see this, I mean, I've said before, I've done a lot of work with relationships I've written.
::A relationship book.
::And so much.
::Comes from just the differences in terms of how we are and how we process.
::You know women.
::Feel that you need to talk about everything men. Then just jump in to fix it mode and are looking for a solution and she doesn't want you to do that. She just wants you to listen and then he gets frustrated because.
::I can't listen to this again. We've got to go and find a.
::Solution and that.
::You know you can see certainly for male and female relationships, how this?
::Chemical imbalance or get not imbalance or any chemical reaction almost in itself is just part of the conflict in terms of the relationship in itself.
::Yeah, I often refer to it. I I did a workshop for an amazing mental health charity back in December, and they're called the Olive Foundation. And I created a workshop for them because they they wanted to take the lessons from my coaching programme and turn it around so it could be a useful tool for women to communicate with men and the name of the workshop was called mums.
::With sons and we basically looked at those different communication styles. Actually one of the things we looked at is a really interesting experiment where.
::Couples went for a stress test which involved hands in cold water.
::You gotta look.
::At a TV screen, if you say anything, then someone dressed as a scientist would make a note that you'd violated the rules. So it was a situation designed to stress men and women out, and what the test was actually.
::Interested in was how did oxytocin affect men and women differently? So some of the participants cuddled. They were given the opportunity to cuddle their partner before the stress test.
::And some were not.
::And what the what this experiment found, and it's one of those ways you see, sometimes see the experiment and you're like, wow, this this is quite an evil experiment. But but in a way, you know, there was a useful lesson and no one got hurt. But, you know, it was an unpleasant stress test. So what was found is that if women were given a cuddle before the stress test.
::Not only was the cuddle more powerful than the stress test, so when the stress test finished they had less cortisol.
::Then, before the stress test, but also the slight stress that they felt afterwards had all dissipated within 25 minutes. If they had a cuddle, so the cuddle was an enormously powerful way to reduce stress in women because it releases oxytocin.
::Now the men.
::Without a cuddle, we're much more stressed than any of the women in the experiment because stress hormones are much greater in males than females.
::But what's really interesting is.
::The men, who had a cuddle before the stress test, were more stressed than the men who didn't have a cuddle and the stress lasted significantly longer. In fact, the cut off was 25 minutes because that's the way the experiment was designed and all the.
::Men were still.
::Significantly stressed after 25 minutes, so afterwards they realised they should have made the experiment longer.
::Was the stress lingered for so long in the men who'd had a cuddle?
::Incredible, isn't it? I talk a lot about love languages as well. You know what one person would.
::Would see as a something really nice to do, ticking a box if you like is different to the next and it you know again you talk about Cuddles, you talk about doing things, taking action, you know, you might some people are like gifts. It's all these different things that make people's relationships work and actually some of those things.
::Is our.
::Because of the way as you're saying and I often talk about, you know, the way that we're wired that the difference is I often literally will say, you know, we are different species.
::Even as trained as I am to read people and listen to unconscious clues in things, you know, men are. They are different beings.
::Yeah, and and that's OK. You know, I think the reason why I like these conversations is because I genuinely believe that men benefit from understanding things like periods, menstrual cycles, menopause. It's important for men to understand those things, even if they're personally never experience them themselves. But on the flip side of that, I think that having this.
::Conversation. It actually benefits women as well to understand that their sons, husbands, dads, but friends better. And actually I think.
::I don't want to underplay the fact that there's massive inequalities in the.
::World. Lots of those inequalities are between men and women. Lots and lots of them are. There are stereotypes and there's discrimination, and I come from a place where I I'm a straight white male and I don't want to play down how much privilege that's given me.
::I hope though, that what we can do is rather than minimising differences, I hope we get to a point where we're all treated equally and we can actually step back and admire and celebrate the differences, rather than pretend that the differences aren't there, cause I don't think that helps anyone.
::And I think having an understanding, you know we can't be each other on any level, even women to women. You know, we men to men, we can't be we. I'm a big fan of being unique and not trying to mind read and get into all the people spaces but I think there is a lot of wealth in just taking a step and trying to understand.
::Be a bit more sort.
::Of curious about what it might be like, instead of jumping to a conclusion or making something up. I mean on a slightly separate note.
::I remember once.
::The client came to me and she was very heavily pregnant and she wanted.
::To talk about ending her marriage because her husband didn't understand what it was like for her to be pregnant.
::And just even once.
::She'd said all that out loud with me just to realise what she was actually asking of.
::Him was impossible.
::And and for her to just realise that she just needed to communicate more and let him know what she what he needed very clear on what she.
::Needed from him.
::Because her hoping that he might work out what she needed while she was pregnant was never.
::Going to happen and.
::And Needless to say, they didn't split up and she obviously went home and.
::They had a different kind of conversation, but just the realisation that you can't. She was expecting him to understand and and I think that's where a lot of conflict comes from.
::In all sorts of areas, but particularly between men and women, but also, you know, same same sex things as well.
::We expect that we know.
::Or we hope that somebody else is going.
::To know what we are feeling and what we're.
::Thinking and not.
::I always think it's all about being In Sync. It's not necessarily about having the same goals, the same experiences, but it's about, you know, deliberately understanding one another, what each other needs, and then actively trying to give it to the other.
::Person. Yeah, that's what's all.
::About and, I refer to that as being in.
::Yeah, I think.
::So I think it's just that not taking such a rigid approach to things and just being able to be a bit.
::More sort of.
::Fluid in that space.
::Ohh gosh Ryan, you've given. Hopefully you've certainly given.
::Me lots of things to think about in terms of.
::What I see and what I observe, and I hope that people listening in today will.
::Yeah, be able to have some new information. Get curious, get researching. You know your links are going to be in our show notes so people can follow you and and follow what you're doing because I think it's really important that we to have these sort of conversations.
::That's brilliant. Well, I really.
::Really enjoyed coming on and I hope that it's been useful for everyone to understand each other a little bit better. You know, regardless of anyone's biological sex or their gender identity. I hope it's been useful to explore this in more detail.
::Ohh I think so. I think the fact you've done the work and you've coming to us.
::Giving us that summary.
::It just hopefully will help either somebody who is the male thinking right I need to change up what I'm doing, what I'm eating, you know, maybe try and lower the risk. But also for me it's about the other side of it. And if you are in a relationship with a man or a son or a a a brother.
::You know what?
::Is it that you can can do rather than try and force them just to talk or force them to do something that isn't actually going to help anyway?
::Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time today. I've absolutely loved our conversation.
::Brilliant. Thank you so much for having me, Alison, and, yeah, happy New Year.
::And you.
::Thank you for listening and sharing in this episode of Mental Wealth. Remember, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcast. My last question to you is what is the one small thing that you can take action on from this episode? Message me on Instagram or through our website with questions you'd like me to.
::The links in the show.
::I'll be back with more tools and tips to make sense of your mind in the next episode. In the meantime, be kind to yourself. Bye for now
